Mindstories Interview - Podcast

I was invited to join board certified psychiatrist Dr. Josephine McNary on her Mindstories podcast where we discuss my approach to couple therapy which is largely informed by the PACT approach. Listen to the episode, watch the interview, or read the transcript here to learn more about how I work with couples, what a first session looks like, one reason true repair isn’t easy, and top skills the most successful couples have to create a long lasting loving relationship.

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Dr. Josephine McNary (00:03):

Seeking mental health care can be overwhelming and even scary, but it doesn't have to be. I'm Dr. Josephine McNary and I'm committed to making this process easier for you. Each week my expert guest and I unravel a different form of therapeutic intervention in order to bring comfort and understanding and to help you get back to your true self.

Dr. Josephine McNary (00:27):

Hello, welcome to another episode of Mind Stories. Today I'm pleased to have him as our guest, Eva Van Prooyen. A licensed marriage and family therapist, relationship specialist, and certified PACT therapist based in Santa Barbara. PACT stands for psychological approach to couple therapy. She has been helping individuals and couples thrive past limiting circumstances, and create happier and more fulfilling lives and relationships since 2001. Welcome Eva.

Dr. Josephine McNary (00:53):

Hi. This is a podcast episode where we talk more about couples therapy and a specific type of therapy that you do, which is called PACT

Eva Van Prooyen (01:02):

Correct. It stands for psychobiological approach to couples therapy and it was developed by Dr. Stan Tatkin.

Dr. Josephine McNary (01:08):

And what is it?

Eva Van Prooyen (01:10):

I was so glad you asked because I am actually a self-proclaimed therapy snob and I just think that work is too important. You got to make sure that you're really informed, which is why I love what you're doing with your mind stories, because it gives people a good sketch of what they can find out there as far as treatment and guidance. And so PACT therapy is a type of couple work and it's really designed to treat even the hardest of cases. What we're looking at really is three areas of study. Attachment theory, neurobiology, and arousal biology. It's founded on a variety of psychodynamic work, trance work, somatic work, social justice and social contract systems. There's definitely psychodrama and family systems work. It incorporates all these areas of study.

Eva Van Prooyen (01:59):

And then we take these three areas of attachment, neurobiology and arousal biology, and we can look at a couple and we can really decode how they're getting into trouble and then show them the way out. With attachment theory, it's really the quality of attachment you had with your primary caregiver when you were young. You take it with you into adulthood and that is a blueprint for how you expect to connect to others. Attachment is, as we know a signal and a response system. If you're a child, your signaling for comfort, for care, for food, to be clean, to be entertained and the response hopefully more often than not is accurate and precise and compassionate and comes without consequences. And then the neurobiology piece is most important because we're thinking about the development of the social emotional brain. The social emotional brain is experienced dependent.

Eva Van Prooyen (02:57):

I have to experience something or witnessed something and have that sense in my body in order to be able to do it. We're looking at those three areas and then helping couples create what we call a secure functioning relationship, which is based deeply on fairness, mutuality, and sensitivity.

Dr. Josephine McNary (03:16):

How do you begin?

Eva Van Prooyen (03:17):

The first session is generally three hours and this type of therapy for couples work rarely do I see someone weekly or a couple of weekly. So that first session is three hours to really get a sense of what's going on in the relationship. It's certainly a way we address the concerns of what's actually bringing the couple into therapy. And then I do an extended interview with each partner while they listen and pay attention to show them how they got where they are, what's getting him into trouble and then starting a sketch of how to get out.

Eva Van Prooyen (03:53):

And these interviews really reveal. It's sort of a cross section, a very concentrated cross section of their attachment system. We're moving couples to start to become experts on one another. In that first session, I make it clear that the goal is really for each person to know who they are and how they operate in the world. And then who their partner is and how they rule, why they do the things they do, or at least start building some insight and curiosity so that you can really become expert in one another, because we know that mature long lasting love means loving the person the way they need to be loved, not the way you need to. We've got to crack that code so you can be giving that person what they need. Because when you offer someone something that they didn't ask for, or you think they should need, it falls flat every time.

Dr. Josephine McNary (04:47):

Got it. So I guess going back to just this idea of how someone even gets to you. How does a couple even identify themselves as a couple that maybe needs a little bit of help? Why would they pick PACT over maybe an another type of couples therapy?

Eva Van Prooyen (05:02):

It's a great question. I think that mental health in general is difficult to navigate. We need a lot of information. There's so much happening online right now. Someone will search at a search engine, divorce, marriage, difficulty with communication, infidelity, cheating, transition with family. People are looking generally for help. And then there's a few sources with some of these databases that have certified therapists and clinicians that they can direct them to. PACT is relatively new. Stan Tatkin started to develop this I would say, gosh, well, I'm sure he was working for a long time. But I've certainly been involved with them and following his research for the past 20 years. He's got a good couple of books out there. Wired for Love. We Do. Two books that I highly recommend just to get people a good start on thinking about their relationship, if they need help.

Eva Van Prooyen (06:00):

The word is spreading. This modality, this type of couple work is different and it's effective. I really, really like the work. There's a high success rate. People grow and learn and heal and get on to the good stuff of living and loving a lot better. I think the word is spreading about this type of work, which is not just content-based. Couples generally fight about time, messiness, money, sex, kids, extended family stuff and all of that will come up in a PACT session. But we're really looking at the process of how they manage those things. How are you managing all of those conversations? Because we see in this model that there really is a fractal, there's an echo, there's a seed.

Eva Van Prooyen (06:50):

How you do anything together is basically how you do everything. And once you can start moving that toward a more mutually sensitive and fair way of making sure you're putting the relationship first and you're taking care of who's in your care, your person, your partner, in a way that is unique to them, it just goes better. It's a great question. I think that there's a lot of information now people are finding on the internet. Dr. Tatkin certainly has a lot of trainings and things that are informing other clinicians and word of mouth is spreading. And of course his literature. I'm hoping that just the word is spreading and that some people are finding a PACT therapist. It's known for being effective in treating difficult cases.

Dr. Josephine McNary (07:31):

Right. I guess my question is how did you gravitate towards this specific therapy?

Eva Van Prooyen (07:35):

I am so lucky. I met Dr. Tatkin in my master's program when I was doing my masters in clinical psychology. And I took every class that he offered. And then he started a study group in Calabasas where he's located, and then that turned into something more regional. That turned into something or state, and then nation and then worldwide. And within that, he developed the PACT Institute. I'm just so darn lucky to have by fate, gotten in on the ground floor as he was developing this. And I was really drawn to the effectiveness of it. It makes sense. There's a practicality and a kindness to it. It's an ambitious type of work and study, but it is science-based and it's not throwing spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks. These are well-researched, well-developed ideas, thoughts, philosophies that work and make sense to couples. I was certainly drawn to that balance of science, practicality, and heart and artistry really in that way.

Dr. Josephine McNary (08:41):

Well, so I've done a few other podcasts on specific types of couples therapy. So I have done one on emotion focused therapy method. I guess my question to you is kind of what are the similarities and differences between your method and some of these other types of couples therapy?

Eva Van Prooyen (08:58):

Yeah. PACT therapy is what we call a bottom up therapy. There's top down and bottom up. I love the question it's so nuanced. I'll take a good swipe at it with the general pieces. Top down therapy is top down meaning you're thinking about something, you're talking about these things, and then you work it through. But what happens is we make up a bunch of stuff in our head about what we think is going on. Bottom up therapy is the emotional brain has these neural pathways that are vertical and long and run through the body. Unresolved traumas or our attachment blueprint will show up in the body first, before we pull it up into the brain, crossed it over into the language center and try to explain to ourselves what's happening. The brain likes to know what's going on so we'll make up a bunch of stuff if we don't know what it is.

Eva Van Prooyen (09:52):

We use enactments so we can look at what's going on, how each partner's attachment system is interacting with one another. We can show how it shows up in the body, and we can go right there to the bottom up therapy so you really get a corrective experience. The fancy term is called long-term potentiation, which is this collection of little miniature moments and all of a sudden you reach a Aha. Let's say you're a dancer and you want to learn a new dance move. The first time you try something, goes okay. The next time it goes a little better. The third time it probably goes really well. If I wanted to do this and this, and then all of a sudden I'm doing this, it's in the body. There's something that happens like, Oh, now I can do this.

Eva Van Prooyen (10:37):

The long-term potentiation piece is something that we look at. We help put clients into what we call enactments to show them what is actually not in their bodies that they think they can't do. And then we help them do it. It's interpersonal because with that social, emotional brain, we are what we know. What we know is what we've experienced. And if we haven't experienced something, we don't know we can do it. I think a great example of this is for instance, with apologies. If as a child, no one ever came and prepared with you really well and said, Oh sweetheart, listen, that was my fault. I really wish I could've done that better. I know that was really painful for you and I am just so sorry. If you haven't had that experience or seen that your parents or your primary people repair well, then you probably don't know how to do it.

Eva Van Prooyen (11:36):

Probably doesn't live in your body. One of the things with these enactments that we do in PACT is we show where those pieces are because making things go well in a partnership often means having to do something that feels foreign. Feels very counter-intuitive. We set these experiences up and I really encourage clients to make these moves that feel counterintuitive, but are actually pro-relationship and then heal you at the same time by filling in all these things that you didn't know you could do. Maybe you didn't know, you could approach someone easier or move away easier or stop someone. It's really looking at where are those things that are missing and feel counterintuitive to do, but aren't wrong.

Dr. Josephine McNary (12:23):

It sounds like it's a lot of work for a person to come into this type of therapy and they need to be ready to do the work it sounds like.

Eva Van Prooyen (12:31):

Yeah they want it because both partners have to be willing. Sometimes one or the other partner will drag someone into the session and I'm always so curious, how did he get you here? How did she get you here? What did she do? How did you do that? It's rare, unfortunately, that couples are proactive. I mean, they're probably proactive in other ways, but to come in and do a therapy just to sort of buff things out and to make sure you're on the right track. Couples often find couples therapy when they're really hurting or they've had a trauma or something's just going wrong or even a big developmental shift in the family. It's such a pro relationship model. Couples really choose right. We choose based on familiarity and so I can show that. Yes, it's a lot of work. There's a high expectation, certainly for the work. But what the couple gets from me is a high level, equal or more of support. It feels very contained, even though it is ambitious and a lot of work, but also makes sense. It doesn't feel uncontained and unsupported in that way. Very pro-relationship.

Dr. Josephine McNary (13:42):

Yeah. But I guess the idea though is that both members of the couple are going in with the same goal.

Eva Van Prooyen (13:50):

Not always. There can be a lot of hopelessness. There can be a belief that hey listen, this is just the way I am. I'm never going to be someone that's going to do this, that or the other thing for the benefit of the relationship. I wasn't raised that way. I don't do it. I don't like it. And so I say, oftentimes, let's pop the hood and take a look. Let's see if that is true, who you really are, or let's see if it's actually an adaptation to neglect. Is it actually you're not able to do it because you don't know how or no one ever made a pitch for why it's better to do it, or to show you how to do it. Oftentimes we just look at what can you, and can't you do interpersonally.

Eva Van Prooyen (14:34):

There's conflict models like I was saying before of what you're fighting about. And then there's these capacity issues of like, what does your capacity for managing your person and drawing them to you. Hopefully using attraction and not fear. But couples come in with different ideas, but I will ask on that first session 99% of the time, I'll ask the other person, because I really want to know what each partner knows about the relationship and their person. I might say to someone, Hey, what is his biggest complaint of you? What is her biggest complaint of you. Or what is her and her and his and his. This works for all couples, all constellations and getting a sense of what they know. Couples generally understand why they're difficult to their person, but don't always know how to make it right. Or they're stuck in finding a easier, better way through those conflict times.

Dr. Josephine McNary (15:28):

So what are the skills then? I know that depends on the couple, but what are some typical skills that you try to build?

Eva Van Prooyen (15:36):

Yeah. Well, certainly first and foremost is this idea that you know who you are and who your person is so that you get why they are the way they are and that you can manage them. If you have a partner, for instance, who you cannot rush. Let's say you can't rush someone. Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go. We got to go. And you're going to set up for a fight every time. It is absolutely a responsibility not to rush them. That's a simple, silly example, but knowing those nuances. It's like knowing what someone's kryptonite, so to speak is, or what their allergy is. If you had a partner who is allergic to shellfish, you can't serve them shellfish. And sometimes people slip up and say, oh you'll love this. You'll love these crab cakes.

Eva Van Prooyen (16:20):

You're like, I can't eat crab cakes and here comes a big fight, right? And so the first and foremost is making sure you know how to manage your person. What you can and can't do with them and how to help them be their best, how to elevate them. The second thing I think that comes up is, it's an attitude of secure functioning relationship is that we are devoted to the relationship. I like the idea that a relationship is the metaphor of a boat. You are in one boat, two people, one boat. Not two people, two separate boats. Because when you do that, you're in one person's systems and there's no collaboration and mutuality, You're two people, one boat. If someone does something to that boat, it's happens to both of you. It's best to keep that boat in excellent shape.

Eva Van Prooyen (17:10):

Dr. Stan Tatkin likes to use the example of what he calls a couple bubble. It's one bubble and that bubble is your security and safety system. Keep that bubble in great shape. There's the attitude of, we agree. We're going to do what we can to make sure our bubble, our boat is in excellent shape. There's many things. I would add another that I think is crucial, is how couples manage outsiders or thirds. And those things are anything outside the relationship, which is children, pets, hobbies, addictions, work, in-laws, all those. How you manage now outsider because in this model, the partners are primary.

Eva Van Prooyen (17:56):

That's it. It's almost like if we're going to speak in computer terms, the couple is 1.0 And then out from there, it's 1.025. It's out there from there, but the couple has to be first and foremost, the center. You're the royalty on the throne. You're the roof over the house and everyone is standing under your roof or invited into your kingdom, so to speak. And so how you manage outsiders, it can go really wrong, really fast when partners mismanage those outsiders. And what happens is that your partner loses and they become second. It can cause a lot of pain, especially when it's built up. Those sorts of things. Those are three big ones that certainly leap off the top here for me in thinking about that.

Dr. Josephine McNary (18:45):

As you're talking, it just seems very complex. Because how one couple of manages outsiders successfully might not be so successful for another couple. This idea that yes, you're in this bubble, but you need to figure out ways to, yes, it is the couple that's paramount, but there's also other aspects of their life that brings them meaning to. How to then live within that bubble to allow things to come in and out in a way that doesn't burst the bubble either.

Eva Van Prooyen (19:11):

Well, we're certainly talking about healthy boundaries, nothing rigid, or brittle or loosey, flimsy, extra permeable. One thing is that PACT therapist we have, I'll say I have no idea what someone's relationship is supposed to look like. And couples when they understand where they've come from, why they do what they're doing and how to work together, they come up with incredible ways of making it go well. I have zero idea and I make zero claims on what anyone's relationships should look like. I have no idea, but I do have a bias. A strong couple bias that it should be fair, neutral, and sensitive, and that they should decide together why they do anything, anything at all. Whether it be monogamy or how they handle holidays or parenting, why they do what they do that they've decided together. And it's that mutuality.

Eva Van Prooyen (20:02):

In that I will add that there's another thing I think is really important, is that we are always encouraging couples to aim for win-win solutions. That your partners success is your success. Because if you win at your partner's expense, it's a lose, lose. In that, if it's not good for you, then it can't be good for your partner. And that is another thing, a foundational piece that I certainly promote and encourage in these relationships, is that it's good for both. Make it good for both. So in that there's a lot of flexibility. There's a lot of creativity and there's a lot of movement and hopefully a lot more fun.

Dr. Josephine McNary (20:43):

Yeah. What are some stated goals that people have? What are goals that people come to you saying they want to accomplish?

Eva Van Prooyen (20:52):

Well, I'll tell you this is what makes PACT different. Is that what couples come in and generally think is the problem, they'll come in and say, we're having a problem because of this content. And what I actually end up showing them is they're actually having a problem because of the process you have around the content. The goal that they may come in with is, we want to improve communication. We'd like more intimacy. I'd like to feel more accepted. I want to feel more valued. I'd like to recover from this massive betrayal, those sorts of things. And betrayals do take precedents we have to go through a whole process of resolving and clearing the betrayal before obviously. There is an order of operations before doing other work. And so with that, they'll come in with goals of like, I'd like it to go better.

Eva Van Prooyen (21:37):

I want to feel better. I want to feel more connected and certainly are the top five there. But what we ended up looking at is, well, let's see how you got here. Let's see what you're doing. How these things are interacting. How the attachment system, the arousal biology and the neurobiology, when they come together, why they do what they do so that you can do all those conversations and all the content stuff so much better. Because we want you to be able to talk about anything and everything without the threat of going to a full-blown war. The goal really is managing your person and the relationship much better regardless of what the content is. And that would even say even the goal. Bring a goal and the PACT therapy is going to show you how to attend to that.

Eva Van Prooyen (22:25):

Even if it's, you know what our conflict is so much faster and more effective now. It's just quick. It doesn't go on for days. We're shortening the amount of time we're in conflict, which means the amount of time we're having a better time is much higher. And that stuff, as we know as psycho neurobiologists, so to speak that goes into long-term memory. And then the body starts to really know that and calm in those ways too. It's a tricky answer about the goals, but it certainly addresses all the goals that couples generally will come in with.

Dr. Josephine McNary (22:56):

When someone thinks about doing this type of therapy, what are they committing to in terms of time?

Eva Van Prooyen (23:02):

It's a great question. The first session is with me is three hours and that's really to properly assess what's going on. Outside of that, I will tell you, depending on the level of crisis a couple is in, which we assess in that first session, and then determines how often we meet, I would say that about 85% of couples come in and do that one session. They get a lot from it. We get a ton of work done, a lot revealed. And then they generally come back the next week or in two weeks, and then usually in two weeks, and then usually in a month and out from there.

Eva Van Prooyen (23:39):

Because they're going home with each other and so they get to practice and work. Once this stuff is in the body, your neuro-biological patterns understand and are starting to heal how you do these things and what you brought into relationship, they're doing what they need to do at home. They don't need me. They've got each other and they're doing it well and they have a new model, a secure functioning model to do their relationship with that feels good because it really does. It feels so good to know how to be a skillful partner. We don't have many examples in our culture of how to do that. This is one of the ways that people can get a good look at what it could be like for them. And then for them to develop what that looks like for themselves uniquely.

Dr. Josephine McNary (24:24):

I think one question I wanted to ask because I think it might help also clarify the process of the therapy and the benefit of the therapy is, what kind of feedback do you get from the people you see? Whether it be just after that first three hour session or a few sessions in. What do people typically say.

Eva Van Prooyen (24:43):

I always check in on that first session of how they're doing with this work and how they're doing with me. There's another example of that modeling. A lot of couples are surprised that they didn't think it was going to go as well. I think a lot of couples come in with the fear that it's going to be imbalanced and the therapist may take sides. They are relieved most of the time. I get a lot of feedback that's like, I'm so glad. because it was balanced. In this work as a PACT therapist, we know that the playing field is level. There are no angels and demons. Everyone's the same, you're both causing harm through relationship. There might be issues of conflict to work out where someone might be in a little more trouble at that time. But you know what? The playing field's level.

Eva Van Prooyen (25:28):

Where there's smoke, there's fire. The bite fits the wound every time and I see it over and over again. Leveling the playing field, showing how they're interacting and how they're both doing what they're doing, shows that a lot of times the pain that they're in is very honest. There's really no malice. It's just that they didn't know what they were doing. The feedback is generally relief at the balance of it, at the pro-relationship feel of it, that it's not a threat to their marriage or to their relationship. And that even though it's rigorous, it's also rewarding. Rigorous and rewarding and a lot to see that they didn't know before and helpful. A lot of positive.

Dr. Josephine McNary (26:11):

And I was also going to ask, what about it do you think is the most impactful? Is it the understanding, is it the insight or are they the skills? What is it?

Eva Van Prooyen (26:22):

Yeah. I would say, let's see if I had to choose, I would say it is the insight. That you get to see your person, your partner in a way that you didn't before. It's almost like, Oh, they actually don't know how to do that because no one ever did that for them. And now they're having to do it for me and that's really clunky and messy. And it's like, Oh, she actually, or he actually can't do that or didn't know how to do that until now. Or we didn't realize we were violating what I call thirds, management of those thirds are outsiders. We didn't realize that. We didn't realize we were putting people out of order. We didn't realize where we were letting the kids be part of the roof. Instead of it's us. We didn't realize I was letting someone else sit in his throne, so to speak. It's an awareness that, the way they were doing relationship didn't have that fairness, that mutuality, that sensitivity. And certainly didn't have an orientation to creating a win-win.

Dr. Josephine McNary (27:24):

Do people ever think about this type of therapy just for themselves? It is a couples model but a model of individual therapy is to develop insight about yourself.

Eva Van Prooyen (27:35):

Yeah. You can heal the individual by doing the couple therapy. You can heal a couple by doing the individual therapy and vice versa and all the way around. I do think that this couple therapy is faster because you're working right there with the person that's usually the cause and the cure, so to speak. It does move things a lot faster, moves things along a lot faster. It also creates a tremendous amount of clarity. And then there's things that ground you, these things make sense. There's actions to take and ways to think that are supportive. So I, as an individual therapist, I use these principles and share this information on relationships with my individual clients as well, and look at how their attachment patterns might be affecting their relationship too. I certainly apply all these principles to my individual work as well.

Dr. Josephine McNary (28:25):

Is there a role for family therapy in this model?

Eva Van Prooyen (28:28):

Well, listen, ideally it's the couples handling the business that they need to. But I do. I work with siblings, best friends, family business partners, mother child, father child, if one of the parents isn't available or isn't living or in the picture or willing. Reunifications, adoptions, I would say about 80% is generally couple couple for the primary. But I do work with family. The work I have is also informed by family constellation piece, which really looks at how a system is an order or not and who's in which role.

Dr. Josephine McNary (29:06):

Would there be a couple that this maybe wouldn't be appropriate for?

Eva Van Prooyen (29:12):

I'm sure there is. I'm such a fan of this model. It works so well because when you understand your partner, you create work arounds. there've been couples on the spectrum that this works well for. There have been couples where there are organic issues, brain issues that weren't seeing and that was maybe causing some misattunement empathically or emotionally within the relationship. It was causing a lot of harm. But once we reveal that and see what's going on couples, if they wish to stay together and do the work, they come up with incredible hacks, if you will, to make it go well. But understanding, appreciation is learned. But once you understand why something has happened, it can really help calm any sort of sense of upset because the brain has a negativity bias. We don't really like to not understand things. When people don't define themselves or they aren't clear, the brain fills in and the brain doesn't fill in with candy and rainbows and puppy dogs, it doesn't go to Disneyland.

Eva Van Prooyen (30:15):

It goes to really horrible places about what could be going wrong. When there's clarity and couples can come up with great solutions. I have seen this model work for a huge arc and continuum of couples of all ages, of all developmental phases, diagnoses. Those things don't matter because any couple, if they decide to, can be secure functioning. And here is this is this Harvard study that started following a group of men in 1938 to see what impacts a successful, happy life. And the answer is good relationships. Yes, it's important to take care of your body, but taking care of your relationships, tending to your relationships to make sure they go well, is another way of self-care and tending to this. And these men they've been studying now for over eight decades. I'm sure you're familiar with the study, show that good relationships is for good health and the solution here.

Dr. Josephine McNary (31:19):

I'm wondering, does the therapy ever end with the couple deciding to divorce or end their relationship as they know it? Does it ever end that way?

Eva Van Prooyen (31:30):

Sure. I will say that I feel very fortunate that it's rare. But here's the thing is that it's not for me to decide if a couple should stay together or not, it's up to them. And if they choose to separate, I help them separate well because we do know that couples will go on to repeat patterns in their next relationship. The pitch there, being pro relationship was, Hey guys, why don't we just attend to this here so that you don't either drag it into your next relationship or that you can get on to having the good stuff here, which is a point of pride for couples that come through the hard stuff.

Eva Van Prooyen (32:05):

They're like, wow, look, what we can do. This is really wonderful. When couples decide to separate, I help them separate well. And when couples come in and say, listen, we're done. We've got to check this out or one more round. I will tell couples that well, yeah, let's run, spell check, so to speak a couple more times. But also I sort of find it's my job to show proof of death so that people can sleep at night and say, you know what, I did everything I could to make that go well. And then they can separate well.

Dr. Josephine McNary (32:35):

Right. But also this idea that even if you're separated, you still have somewhat of a relationship, right?

Eva Van Prooyen (32:40):

There's no such thing as no relationship it just looks differently now.

Dr. Josephine McNary (32:43):

It's to their advantage, to be able to figure out a way to have a relationship as they can.

Eva Van Prooyen (32:47):

Especially when children are involved and when there's an investment of time, energy and heart. You may as well let that separation go as well as it can. I'll help a couple separate or run that spell check if they need to.

Dr. Josephine McNary (33:02):

Your work sounds fascinating to me.

Eva Van Prooyen (33:04):

I love what I do. I absolutely love it. I'm hoping to make the world a better place one secure functioning relationship at a time. Whatever that might look like.

Dr. Josephine McNary (33:13):

I'm pretty sure you don't have many dull moments in your work with people.

Eva Van Prooyen (33:18):

My clients, they work so hard. It's such an honor. I feel it's such an honor and privilege for me to get to do the work I do and for couples to come in. It's lively. Couples will say, gosh, that's long that three hour session. And then when it's over, like, wow, that went by fast. We're exhausted. But that was fast. It's dynamic. There really, isn't a dull moment. It's fascinating. Good relationships are so important so it's a real pleasure for me to get to do the work I do.

Dr. Josephine McNary (33:45):

One last thing I'm just so curious about is with COVID, how has your work changed with people?

Eva Van Prooyen (33:50):

Well, I am working remotely solely right now and the couple work is still going very well. Even just with that three hour intake, I'm getting couples on the same screen. I have a few couples in different locations being separated from the pandemic, but it's going well. It's going well. Couples are reporting just things that you can imagine in addition to pandemic fatigue of how to manage the stress and the added difficulty. But again, it's just a category of content we have to go through. Certainly significant missed time. Couples are trying to figure out how to reconcile for instance, how closed their loop should be, for instance. Should we have grandma come over and should I go to the office here and negotiating those things. But here's the deal with the PACT model. If it's not good for you, then it's not good for me.

Eva Van Prooyen (34:43):

And if it's not good for me, it's not good for you. They're coming to a place of true negotiation that supports the relationship. I've been doing a lot of that work so that couples can decide better in a way that's win-win. And also the thing that's coming up is making sure that we know the brain loves novelty. And here we are at home with limited experiences, how to develop that we're having to work a little bit more for novelty in relationship. Supporting couples in that conversation, those have been the top things for sure.

Dr. Josephine McNary (35:15):

Have you noticed couples wanting to do more work because it's right in front of them?

Eva Van Prooyen (35:20):

Oh gosh, that's a great question. It's business as usual for me right now. It's just that I don't have the couples in my office and I do the work on rolling chairs. Each couple sits in a rolling chair. I have a lot of space and utilize the couch and everything in the space where we're moving around a lot. There's some limitations with that. It's kind of business as usual other than I'm having to get a little more creative of how to create some of these enactments remotely. But it's working and I'm really delighted. I'm delighted.

Dr. Josephine McNary (35:48):

You enlightened me about your therapy. I'm so excited to know more about it and I think it will be hopefully very helpful for the listener. Before we say goodbye is there last words?

Eva Van Prooyen (36:00):

Dr. McNary, I'm just grateful to have the opportunity to talk about this. It's so important. Especially in this time, the social justice aspect of this work, it really is when we think about the fractal and the pebble and the ripples of the water, if we do well here as a couple, then we do well in our family and then our extended family, and then hopefully our neighborhood and community and county and state and nation in a way of just interacting better in a way that's fair, mutual and sensitive, and working towards collaboration and win-wins. We have this time, if it's a novel idea to take your relationship to the next step or do what you want, you can certainly do a lot of reading on this with those books I mentioned. Wired for Love, and We Do. I have some blogs that outline some of this just to get people thinking so that in this time that's so difficult when there's so much important change happening, that we can do that well too, in a way that takes care of each other.

Dr. Josephine McNary (36:54):

I love it. That's the best ending I've had in a long time.

Eva Van Prooyen (36:58):

Oh, that's so nice. It's been such a nice time chatting with you.

Dr. Josephine McNary (37:02):

Yeah. Well, I'll make sure a little bit about you is listed on our podcast description as well as some of the links the listeners can learn a bit more about you and just the work in general that you do.

Eva Van Prooyen (37:13):

Thank you so much, Dr. Mcnary

Dr. Josephine McNary (37:17):

This has been Mind Stories. With remote appointments in California and offices in downtown LA, Santa Monica, Hermosa Beach, Marina Del Ray, Echo Park in Santa Barbara. Cal Psychiatry specializes in medication management, mood and anxiety disorders, alternative therapies, women's mental health, and more to help you get back to your true self. visit us at calpsychiatry.com. Thanks for listening to Mind Stories and don't forget to subscribe.

Hello

I am a licensed psychotherapist and relationship specialist based in Santa Barbara, CA. I have a private practice working with couples and individuals to address relationship issues, anxiety, depression, addiction, and life transitions. I blend neuroscience and theory with warmth and humor to help make positive and enlivening changes in my client’s lives and relationships.

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